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Toby Atkin-Wright ([personal profile] tobyaw) wrote2010-11-10 05:33 pm
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Students

Student tuition fees was the big issue in English politics today. Clegg defended his position at PMQs, while the NUS marched outside. There was potential to damage the coalition, particularly with the politically opportunist change of heart on fees by Labour.

But then it all went wrong for the students: the protests descended into violence and confrontation, and the news channels were filled with students expressing astonishing levels of entitlement. Students justifying their bully-boy tactics made for pretty unpleasant listening. I felt great sympathy for the people working in the Millbank Tower and at 30 Millbank, and in the surrounding area.

The students' message appeared to be that they want taxpayers to give them money, and if they don't, violence will follow. Isn't that a protection racket?

What a nasty bunch.

[identity profile] lapswood.livejournal.com 2010-11-10 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)
The main crux of the debate is that the fees are tripling unexpectedly. If they weren't raised, do people think it's right for the family to pay for their childrens university tuition now. In all the main Asian econnomies, only the family pays for the child's further education. It just doesn't occur to them that it should be paid for by taxes of others. Why can't we get that state of mind here?
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[personal profile] ggreig 2010-11-10 09:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Because education should be available to those qualified to make something of it, and that would price people with unfortunate or unsupportive families out of something that ought to be a right.

I'm more than happy for my taxes to support others' educations, as mine was supported for me. There are some uses of tax money that may be more urgently needed at times, but I doubt whether there is a better long term use of a nation's tax money than funding education.
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[personal profile] ggreig 2010-11-10 10:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Beyond school the student should qualify for higher education on merit. And by and large, the tax payer should fund that; it's an investment in the future of the nation.

I think more people should be in higher education than was the case when I was there; but I also think having a target of 50% of people in higher education was the wrong way to go about it. Emphasising increased funding for a strategic balance of subjects might have been a better way to go. Note balance; although I'm a scientist, I think the arts are important too, and even "light-weight" subjects have value so long as it's not everyone that's doing them. We don't want thousands of experts on the navel fluff of the Egyptian Pharaoh, but having a few probably enriches us all. (Hope I haven't offended any Egyptian Pharaoh navel fluff experts...)

[identity profile] makyo.livejournal.com 2010-11-10 10:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Why should vocational courses be masquerading as three-years of full-time academic study?
OK, so this has drifted into the "academic vs vocational" argument, which is itself a valid and interesting one. Personally I'm inclined to agree with you to at least some extent. We desperately need to get rid of the snobbish attitude that many people have to vocational subjects, although I do think there's something to be said for a bit of cross-pollination: give the vocational people some academic grounding, and give the academic types some experience of more practical matters.

I suspect what happened is that the universities, desperate for money, spotted a niche in the market, and used their academic credentials to entice people onto courses which should probably have remained as practical training programmes. But I can't blame them - they were encouraged to do so by the government of the day, and they needed to find some money from somewhere.

[identity profile] makyo.livejournal.com 2010-11-10 10:25 pm (UTC)(link)
And education in every subject?
Yes, absolutely.

... light-weight subjects ... dross ...
That depends on what you mean by "light-weight" and "dross" - they're not well-defined concepts, and you'll get a different set of answers depending on who you ask. I'm extremely dubious about the validity of management and business studies (it all seems like nebulous, hand-wavy nonsense with little connection to what it purports to describe) whereas I think classics should be more widely studied, but I suspect I'm in the minority there on both counts.

Jack Cohen said something in a talk I went to a few years ago: Most people think that the end product of a PhD is a neatly typeset, bound thesis on the shelf in the library. But it isn't, the real end product of a PhD is the person who's done the PhD.

And I think it's the same with any programme of education: the real point of studying isn't to learn a specific corpus of facts which may or may not be relevant to something the general public consider important; it's how it changes the student, what it does to the way they see the world around them, how it enhances their ability for critical thought. Which benefits all of us: god knows this country, this world needs more people who think carefully about stuff.

For example, the five years of Latin I did at school have had no direct practical or economic benefit to me, but they enhanced my appreciation of language, my understanding of grammar, and have made the world a richer and more splendid place for me as a result. The same goes for the various texts they made me study for GCSE English Literature, even though I completely hated it at the time and really didn't get along with the teacher (Mr Charters).
ggreig: (Default)

[personal profile] ggreig 2010-11-10 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
*** Applause ***

[identity profile] lapswood.livejournal.com 2010-11-10 09:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Up to the age of 18 (A-Level) yes but university education is expensive. There are many responsibilities in being a parent and one should be to save a uni fund from the week your child is born as it's you who decided to have the child. Collective responsibity to pay for others people's children's uni education is not a good use of public taxes. Major companies should set up scholarship schemes so that very poor families who wish to send their child to further education can apply for.

[identity profile] makyo.livejournal.com 2010-11-10 09:37 pm (UTC)(link)
It's not just the individual graduate who benefits from their education, the entirety of society does. The most obvious benefits are economic in nature, but one certainly shouldn't underestimate the non-economic side-effects of a highly-educated populace.

I'm certainly happy for my tax money to be spent on funding education for everyone, to as high a level as is useful to them; furthermore I have no objection to people learning less practical subjects, as long as they learn something. And if a more vocational route suits some people better than a traditional academic one, then they should be allowed to do that too. There are many far less useful things that our tax money gets spent on, at least education provides a decent return on the investment.

[identity profile] lapswood.livejournal.com 2010-11-10 09:49 pm (UTC)(link)
As a compromise, I suggest that the family pay half of the tuition but only for the first two children. Any further children must be fully funded by the trust fund system of the scholarship system for the poorest.