Independence

[tobyaw]

So… in 2014 we get to vote in a referendum on independence from the United Kingdom. In 2017 we get to vote in a referendum on independence from the European Union.

I assume that if we, as a country, vote yes for the first, then we won’t get the chance to vote for the second.

What do we do if we fancy both?

Comments

[lewis-p-bear.livejournal.com]

As the EU referendum depends on Mr C getting back in I don't think you have an issue.
He may be a Decent Chap who is just misunderstood but we can't see that cutting it with the down trodden masses.
Two ideas come to mind.
We could abandon the EU and join Scotland ( i.e. let the Scottish parliament run England as well) or just admit the whole thing is a cock up and elect the first Teddy Bear government.
This Bear would be happy to serve and has some very definite policy ideas in the matter of Kapok tax.
One other thought.
This 'ere Scottish referendum?
Who gets to vote?
Do you have to have a Scottish Grandmother or just live there 'cause if it is the latter doesn't that mean that lots of English will be voting to leave England?
Weird.

[ggreig]

Qualification is by residency, so a lot of people who are English by birth but live here will have a vote, while a lot of people who are Scots by birth but live elsewhere won't. Some of those excluded are whinging about it, but really there's no other sensible way to do it.

[tobyaw]

One could argue that all members of a union should have a vote in choosing whether to break up that union. I suspect if the English and Welsh had a vote in the referendum, then Scottish independence would be somewhat likelier.

[ggreig]

One couldn't really, unless one wanted to put aside the internationally agreed principle of self determination. Even though, as you say, it might favour my preference.

[tobyaw]

Self determination seems quite well defined and widely accepted. It depends, however, on a rather wooly definition of “nation”, as far as I can tell.

[ggreig]

That's where it helps that Scotland is pretty well-defined as a nation, although it's not currently a state - there are existing, well-defined borders, hundreds of years of independent history preceding the Union(s), and institutions such as separate legal and education systems (which existed even before devolution of course).

[tobyaw]

Fair enough. By comparison, Wales and Northern Ireland don’t share the same attributes of nationhood, so wouldn’t have the same rights to self determination.

[ggreig]

I think they would (as would England of course). You don't need all those attributes; the fact that Scotland does have them is just supporting evidence that makes our case easier to recognise.

If a significant proportion of the populations of the Isles of Bute or Wight (chosen because they don't have a significant independent history, to my knowledge) wanted self determination they could go for it. They'd probably have to struggle harder to be listened to than Scotland has, but they could do it.

So, to take what might be a slightly more likely example, if [England + Wales + Northern Ireland] wanted to hold a referendum to become a state independent from the current UK, that would be fine, and Scotland would have no say in the matter, although the end result of a Yes would be remarkably similar to a successful Scottish independence referendum.